Hi all, hope you are managing well with shelter-in-place.
I encountered an article today, and I hope to refrain from strong reactions while I add a few thoughts below. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/ I'll start by agreeing that `systemd` has benefit - maybe not well seen from free software enthusiasts, however since the big drive for Linux (and the userspace that follows) comes from the enterprise, `systemd` has seen a lot of acceptance for being a "one stop shop" for server configuration, monitoring, and problem solving. Journalist Bryan Lunduke has joked about `systemd` for violating the UNIX philosophy "do one thing and do it well" as it becomes much more than an initialization daemon. Although, I would counter that argument with the existence of `Emacs` (the editor that does everything but be an editor). ;^) Anyway, I am rather divided with this new component, `homed`. Seems like there is great potential for fine-tuned permissions for a large mount-point (ala MS Active Directory) - nested group memberships, for example, in this: > That record will contain all user information such as username, group membership, and password hashes. It's not really useful outside of large organizations however. Even in the mid-scale, if you want UID's to be consistent across multiple systems and not use a particular product, it seems a bit trivial to devote one system for all new users and have scripts to reserve that username to the same UID across the rest. For individuals, there are no concerns even present since most of us would just be using UID 1000 across several computers anyway. > So, for the simple act of logging in, three mechanisms are required (systemd, /etc/shadow, /etc/passwd). This is inefficient, and Poettering has decided to make a drastic change. If two files and a daemon is inefficient, the proposed replacement by using a JSON file, a greater selection of tools to manage that JSON file, and a daemon (or two?) for the bulk of end-users likens to a Rube Goldberg machine. I feel there is some consideration lacking in this (aside from how key- based remote access will be broken with the current re-implementation), and while I don't want to see a huge split in system initialization for the enterprise from closer-to-bare installs (because the latter will likely be neglected), the wheel seems to be re-invented significantly enough where you "try to buy an FM radio but the only options are all- in-one entertainment centres with the first year of a Spotify subscription bundled in for no added cost". I can only imagine the most agreeable middle ground is to split `systemd` into their components - since right now it appears while it is made up of several packages, those packages are heavily inter- dependent. Having the ability to use some `systemd` components (init, journald) but not others (logind, homed) - be it through a clean replacement or shim+legacy - it should provide more choice in the matter than the current all (`systemd` ecosystem) or nothing (`SysV`+legacy) approach. -- Regards, Joel Maxwell _______________________________________________ nSLUG mailing list [hidden email] http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug |
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:44:04PM -0300, Joel Maxwell wrote:
> I encountered an article today, and I hope to refrain from strong > reactions while I add a few thoughts below. > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/ > I was a big fan of Debian until systemd hit. Took a brief look at Devuan, and decided it was not for me. Debian packages are (for me) a real pain to create. Three years ago, I switched to Slackware, and haven't looked back. My $0.02, Douglas. Douglas Guptill, B.Sc., CCP, M.Comp.Sci., THM _______________________________________________ nSLUG mailing list [hidden email] http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug |
In reply to this post by Joel Maxwell
I have similar feelings about systemd. It has some uses, especially in
enterprises and in some application development architectures where Linux is used to host higher-level execution environments (i.e. Docker, k8s, etc). However, I strongly dislike its opacity and the trend for it to gobble up everything about the init and runtime environment. More and more it's taking over networking, firewall and so forth. All 'problems' that didn't need to be solved, IMO. It's part of what I've termed a bit of a cancer in the GNU/Linux world: everything has to be a swiss army knife of complexity and functions. I was much happier with the old UNIX ethos of "do one thing and do it well". The Linux way is becoming a squeeze everyone into the same sized box ethos. An now homed. This is an even more extreme case of a problem that didn't need to be fixed. At all. If major distros adopt this as the default for user home directories it might be the last straw for me and send me running back to the BSD world. On Thu, 2020-04-30 at 23:44 -0300, Joel Maxwell wrote: > Hi all, hope you are managing well with shelter-in-place. > > I encountered an article today, and I hope to refrain from strong > reactions while I add a few thoughts below. > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/ > > _______________________________________________ nSLUG mailing list [hidden email] http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug |
Hi Everybody
Thanks, Joel, for starting off this thread. And Rory, I like your comparison to systemd as a cancer. I know very little about systemd. But, there were a couple of very simple admin tasks that each would have required about 5 minutes for me to perform with SysV that I couldn't do with systemd, without days of heavy documentation reading. Systemd seems to be useful in large system environments, but for the home user without experience in such environments, I find it's the pits. There is far too steep a learning curve required for home users to achieve whatever benefits it might have for them. And homed sounds like adding insult to injury. At present I am using a "hybrid" Debian/Devuan system. I discovered how to install Debian/Buster without systemd but couldn't find a desktop environment solely within Debian that suited me. So I added Devuan to the start of my sources.list file and installed Xfce, plus some other programs whose Debian version depended on systemd. This system works just fine at present, but I have no idea how I could do a dist upgrade with it. I expect when that time comes that I will switch completely to Devuan. Has anybody on the list any experience with Devuan? I would be interested in other users pros and cons. Regards Jack Rory wrote: > I have similar feelings about systemd. It has some uses, especially in > enterprises and in some application development architectures where > Linux is used to host higher-level execution environments (i.e. Docker, > k8s, etc). > > However, I strongly dislike its opacity and the trend for it to gobble > up everything about the init and runtime environment. More and more > it's taking over networking, firewall and so forth. All 'problems' that > didn't need to be solved, IMO. It's part of what I've termed a bit of a > cancer in the GNU/Linux world: everything has to be a swiss army knife > of complexity and functions. I was much happier with the old UNIX ethos > of "do one thing and do it well". The Linux way is becoming a squeeze > everyone into the same sized box ethos. > > An now homed. This is an even more extreme case of a problem that > didn't need to be fixed. At all. If major distros adopt this as the > default for user home directories it might be the last straw for me and > send me running back to the BSD world. > > On Thu, 2020-04-30 at 23:44 -0300, Joel Maxwell wrote: >> Hi all, hope you are managing well with shelter-in-place. >> >> I encountered an article today, and I hope to refrain from strong >> reactions while I add a few thoughts below. >> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nSLUG mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug -- Jack Warkentin, phone 902-404-0457, email [hidden email] 39 Inverness Avenue, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3P 1X6 _______________________________________________ nSLUG mailing list [hidden email] http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug |
In reply to this post by Douglas Guptill
Hi Douglas
Why did you decide that Devuan was not for you? (I have never had a reason to try to created a Debian package.) Please see my other post (with the subject "Devuan anyone? [Was ...") about the "hybrid" Debian/Devuan system I am currently using. Regards Jack Douglas Guptill wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:44:04PM -0300, Joel Maxwell wrote: > >> I encountered an article today, and I hope to refrain from strong >> reactions while I add a few thoughts below. >> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/ >> > > I was a big fan of Debian until systemd hit. Took a brief look at > Devuan, and decided it was not for me. Debian packages are (for me) a > real pain to create. Three years ago, I switched to Slackware, and > haven't looked back. > > My $0.02, > Douglas. > > Douglas Guptill, B.Sc., CCP, M.Comp.Sci., THM > _______________________________________________ > nSLUG mailing list > [hidden email] > http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug > -- Jack Warkentin, phone 902-404-0457, email [hidden email] 39 Inverness Avenue, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3P 1X6 _______________________________________________ nSLUG mailing list [hidden email] http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug |
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