Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

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Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Oliver Doepner
Hi all,

I use Google for web search, gmail, maps, calendar, photos, contacts
and news aggregation.

I use Facebook for communicating with many people in a way that is
more flexible than reply-all emailing or distribution list email
conversations. I limit FB use to about 1h a day, as I find some of the
interactions with not-so-close "friends" or even strangers easily
confrontational and too time-consuming.

Some people on this group seem to have strong reasons to avoid or even
denounce these companies and their services.

Can you explain why and what the alternatives are, for the above uses?

Both companies have made significant contributions to Open Source, by the way:
- https://opensource.google.com/
- https://opensource.facebook.com/

Let's have a civilized and non-inflammatory discussion about this, please. :)

--
Oliver Doepner
http://odoepner.github.io/
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Mike Spencer

Oliver Doepner wrote:

> I use Google for web search, gmail, maps, calendar, photos, contacts
> and news aggregation.

I use Google search all the time.  I have a work-around that prevents
the search results that I click on from being routed back through
Google's server before being forwarded to the real destination.  I
think I've clicked on the ads (that accompany search results) maybe 3
times -- those I allow to go back to Google.

Google Maps has proven very useful a half dozen times although it's
tedious to use over dialup. (Oh, and they have an error on my own road
that ceased being correct well over 50 years ago.  They obviously
based it on pre- or circa-WWII topographic maps.)

Never tempted to use any other of their services.

In another venue (comp.misc) I recently wrote:

    This is actually a deeper matter that it at first glance appears
    to be.  What things bear secondary or covert costs, what things
    offend your dignity, what things constitute (or just imply) your
    collaboration in something unsavory (or even evil) -- that you
    could get along without?  Can you just not have/use/do those
    things despite the costs, losses or risks attendant on foregoing
    them?

That was about using smart phones but it applies to Google, Facebook
and other mega-corp free services as well.

> Some people on this group seem to have strong reasons to avoid or
> even denounce these companies and their services.

There's an article, longish and perhaps MEGO-genic if you're not keen on
the subject at:

    https://medium.com/s/story/nothing-can-stop-google-duckduckgo-is-trying-anyway-718eb7391423

In general, I don't like to have relationships with big corporations.
Yes, I have electricity and a (land-line) phone (although I didn't for
a decade) and a contract for welding gases but I mostly avoid other
involvements with corporations.  I think I may be obliged by age to
get a cell phone just because I can no longer walk home anywhere I
happen to find myself stranded and there are no pay phones.  When I do
so, I'll go for a smart phone despite the degree to which they offend
me because of the added capability of tethering.

I really don't like the idea of being tracked and data-based.  My
work-around for Google search results gives me a (possibly specious)
sense of successful resistance there.  FB is not, AFAICT, subject to
that resistance and I don't need yet another venue where I need to
devote hours to trying (probably unsuccessfully, in the case of FB) to
disable unwanted aspects.

> I use Facebook for communicating with many people in a way that is
> more flexible than reply-all emailing or distribution list email
> conversations. I limit FB use to about 1h a day, as I find some of
> the interactions with not-so-close "friends" or even strangers
> easily confrontational and too time-consuming.
>
> Can you explain why and what the alternatives are, for the above uses?

Alternatives? Nope.  See the comp.misc squib, above.  If you feel good
about FB and Google cloud/SAS services and they don't offend your
personal dignity, carry on.  But then, I'm probably something of a
troglodyte so I might have difficulty recognizing as essential
something you'd feel you couldn't do without.


ObLinux:

The Google search work-around was a great exercise in Perl coding,
regular expressions, HTTP protocol and Apache cgi-bin.


FWIW,
--
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~.
                                                           /V\
[hidden email]                                     /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/                        ^^-^^



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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Jack Warkentin-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Doepner
Hi Oliver

As I think I have said before on either nSLUG or HCC, I don't have *any*
social media presence - *that I know of* - the caveat being that  FB
seems able to get information about people through apps downloaded from
the Google Play store. I do this because (1) I value my privacy, (2) the
business plans of social media outfits depend on harvesting as much
personal information as possible from everybody they possibly can, which
is abhorrent to me, (3) I don't want to be bombarded with targeted adds
and (4) once you allow any personal information to get out there, it
absolutely impossible to ever get it completely erased.

I know of no alternatives to social media, although as a result of Mike
Spencer's post I wondered if it would be possible to set up Usenet news
groups for communicating with people you don't want to be exchanging
frequent emails with. I haven't used Usenet since I retired in 1996 but
would be prepared to do so if this were possible.

On my desktop computer I use duckduckgo.com for web searches to avoid
being tracked, and for my desktop email I use a direct POP3  connection
to my ISP. On my android smartphone I use K9mail for email (only when
traveling), and Google search, chrome, maps, and contacts, but not
calendar or photos. But, I *never* do *any* financial-type stuff (eg
online banking, ordering stuff from Amazon) on my smartphone.

No doubt I an still being tracked in some ways or others but short of
not using web browsers and search engines at all I see no way around this.

Everybody is entitled to her/his/their personal views on these issues,
so I have every expectation of there being a completely civilized and
non-inflammatory discussion about these issues.

Regards

Jack

Oliver Doepner wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I use Google for web search, gmail, maps, calendar, photos, contacts
> and news aggregation.
>
> I use Facebook for communicating with many people in a way that is
> more flexible than reply-all emailing or distribution list email
> conversations. I limit FB use to about 1h a day, as I find some of the
> interactions with not-so-close "friends" or even strangers easily
> confrontational and too time-consuming.
>
> Some people on this group seem to have strong reasons to avoid or even
> denounce these companies and their services.
>
> Can you explain why and what the alternatives are, for the above uses?
>
> Both companies have made significant contributions to Open Source, by the way:
> - https://opensource.google.com/
> - https://opensource.facebook.com/
>
> Let's have a civilized and non-inflammatory discussion about this, please. :)
>
> --
> Oliver Doepner
> http://odoepner.github.io/
> _______________________________________________
> nSLUG mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug
>

--
Jack Warkentin, phone 902-404-0457, email [hidden email]
39 Inverness Avenue, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3P 1X6
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Rory-9
In reply to this post by Oliver Doepner
Coincidentally, I just posted my two-week termination notice on FB this
morning :)

I'm not opposed to social media in principle, but the business pratices
of FB specifically need to be punished.  Same can be said at times for
Google; their open source contributions notwithstanding.

Now, as for replacements, this can be very tough. Such is the nature of
their near monopoly.  I'm giving MeWe a kick of the tires but as you
might expect very few of my FB friends are there. Facebook I won't miss
much at all in spite of it being the only easy place to find old high
school friends and even some family.  Google is more difficult to ditch
as I have used gmail for years to sign up for things and I'm compelled
with my employment to have either an android or apple phone.

Ultimately if all your 'friends' are on Facebook and you actually use
it to communicate with them then there is no single replacement.
That's fine with me, I'll make a few sacrifices in order to get away
from FB permanently. For others it's not so easy.

On Thu, 2019-04-18 at 20:32 -0300, Oliver Doepner wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I use Google for web search, gmail, maps, calendar, photos, contacts
> and news aggregation.
>
> I use Facebook for communicating with many people in a way that is
> more flexible than reply-all emailing or distribution list email
> conversations. I limit FB use to about 1h a day, as I find some of
> the
> interactions with not-so-close "friends" or even strangers easily
> confrontational and too time-consuming.
>
> Some people on this group seem to have strong reasons to avoid or
> even
> denounce these companies and their services.
>
> Can you explain why and what the alternatives are, for the above
> uses?
>
> Both companies have made significant contributions to Open Source, by
> the way:
> - https://opensource.google.com/
> - https://opensource.facebook.com/
>
> Let's have a civilized and non-inflammatory discussion about this,
> please. :)
>
> --
> Oliver Doepner
> http://odoepner.github.io/
> _______________________________________________
> nSLUG mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://nslug.ns.ca/mailman/listinfo/nslug

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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Mike Spencer
In reply to this post by Jack Warkentin-2

Jack Warkentin wrote:

> ...as a result of Mike Spencer's post I wondered if it would be
> possible to set up Usenet news groups for communicating with people
> you don't want to be exchanging frequent emails with.

There is a hfx.general newsgroup.  For awhile, quite active, later
infested with 2 or 3 pottymouthed trolls and one educated but
misguided guy who liked to argue with them -- driving most others
away.  Now there is a small group of well-meaning regulars, one of
which, IIRC, is a Linux user with a background in IT.

And then there's alt.beograd (among a number of very lightly trafficed
groups) where you can squat.  Usenet still has its share or trolls,
fanatics, dements and dickheads but they tend to congregate [1]. AFAIK,
there are no malevolent incarnations of Kibo, grepping the news spool for
opportunities to cause trouble, who will autobotically find you there.

A couple of guys undertook to do a minor Usenet revival when ownership
of /. changed to a more corporate enterprise-oriented structure.  See
comp.misc and misc.news.internet.discuss.

See you on alt.beograd. :-)


ObLinux: Tnx to GNW III for pointers.  I'll get back to that soon.


[1] rec.crafts.metalworking and alt.conspiracy are examples.

--
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~.
                                                           /V\
[hidden email]                                     /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/                        ^^-^^
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Tony Rowe
In reply to this post by Oliver Doepner
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 08:32:48PM -0300, Oliver Doepner wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I use Google for web search, gmail, maps, calendar, photos, contacts
> and news aggregation.

I use Google for gmail, maps, youtube; duckduckgo for searches.

[...]
> Some people on this group seem to have strong reasons to avoid or even
> denounce these companies and their services.
>
> Can you explain why and what the alternatives are, for the above uses?

I tend to agree with Stallman on these topics.  He did an interview
last week on RT where he talked exactly about these companies, the
whats and the why-nots, and some alternatives.

https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/456509-digital-privacy-internet-surveillance/

A podcast of the same interview is here

https://soundcloud.com/rttv/richard-stallman-facebook-is-surveillance-monster-feeding-on-our-personal-data-sophieco?in=rttv/sets/sophieco

Somewhat peripherally, it will be interesting to keep an eye on the
librem-5 cell phone project.  The cost needs to come down a little for
my budget.

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

Tony
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Dave Flogeras
In reply to this post by Mike Spencer
Not much to add to the current discussion topic, some good points so far.

However, Mike re: what you wrote about necessity of a phone:

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 4:07 AM Mike Spencer <[hidden email]> wrote:

involvements with corporations.  I think I may be obliged by age to
get a cell phone just because I can no longer walk home anywhere I
happen to find myself stranded and there are no pay phones.  When I do
so, I'll go for a smart phone despite the degree to which they offend
me because of the added capability of tethering.


Another line of thought here; you could keep your privacy by purchasing a cheapo non-smart phone as well as a simple cellular usb stick modem.  Probably spend less dough (I think we got my parents a reasonable cell for when they're at the cottage last year for about $80, and I found a cellular stick on ebay for myself a couple years ago for less than $50).  With new rules on having unlocked SIM/cellular devices in Canada, you could simply pop the SIM out of the phone and use it in the modem as needed.

Just a thought, if you truly only need the phone for a phone.  It also follows the 'one tool, one job' philosophy so that if you lose the phone or modem, or one or the other fail, you only have to replace one less expensive thing.  Also, the really cheap smart phones in my experience can be enraging to use because there's 10 lbs of crud in a 2 lbs bag.

Dave

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Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Mike Spencer

> However, Mike re: what you wrote about necessity of a phone:
>
> Another line of thought here; you could keep your privacy by
> purchasing a cheapo non-smart phone as well as a simple cellular usb
> stick modem.

Jeez, I'm embarrassingly ignorant about phones newer than a Nortel
2500.  [ObLinux] The reason I was keen on Unix, then Linux, was [1]
that there's almost always an answer to "So, how does that work?"  I
recently leaned how to use my wife's smart phone to reach the net when
something important is too big for dialup.  I hadda memorize "get
screen that looks like this; swipe up (not down); tap the gear thing;
choose the wobbly thing;...." and so on.  Anathema.

I didn't know that if you have a non-smart "plain" cell phone, that
the service attached to the SIM would automagically support data.  
Does the "stick modem" to which you refer just allow you to do dialup
over the cellular link?  Or does it behave like a wifi hotspot,
getting you an IP address via DHCP?

I need a sit-down (or maybe a series of them) with somebody that knows
all this stuff and, additionally, can explain the varieties of
functionality without lapsing into Deep Jargon.  (One person who
lacked the latter attribute kindly gave me brain dump but I'm no
better for it. :-) I had such a guy in my sights, the rep in the
Rogers store-front in Bridgewater.  I listened to him work with an
unhappy subscriber and was very impressed.  Just as I was about to
grab a wad of money and go make a deal with him, the building burned
down and Rogers seems not to have arranged a replacement Intelligent,
Patient Real Person here.  

> Just a thought, if you truly only need the phone for a phone.

Not likely to need Google maps when lost in Zagreb or to find my way
to Carnegie Hall [2].  Might need help if my car dies in Cape Breton
or even in Bridgewater.  OTOH, Peggy has demonstrated that some of the
"smart" features are handy if hardly critical.

> It also follows the 'one tool, one job' philosophy...

That, too.

> the really cheap smart phones in my experience can be enraging to
> use because there's 10 lbs of crud in a 2 lbs bag.

Didn't know that. Do you mean lots of preloaded "apps", like the
teaser software packages that (allegedly) come with Windoes?  That you
have to tediously extirpate?  Huh.  I believe the term is "blivet". ;-)
Not keen on managing a digital blivet.


[1] And remains so, although my brain is 30 years older than my intro
    to Unix and Linux (and networking) seem to be developing pockets of
    impenetrability.

[2] Practice, practice, practice.  :-)

--
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~.
                                                           /V\
[hidden email]                                     /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/                        ^^-^^
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Robert McKay
On 2019-04-22 13:32, [hidden email] wrote:
>> However, Mike re: what you wrote about necessity of a phone:
>>
>> Another line of thought here; you could keep your privacy by
>> purchasing a cheapo non-smart phone as well as a simple cellular usb
>> stick modem.

Not really.. both the non smart phone and usb dongle can be localised /
triangulated by the cell network. US networks recently got into trouble
selling this location data to bail bondsman. Your phone number will
still be uploaded to Facebook/LinkedIn etc by anyone you've ever given
it too, also linking you to them in the social graph. Moving into 5g the
networks may even be able to track you when not carrying any phone at
all.. basically synthetic aperture radar / real-time remote imaging or
imagine a city inside a giant airport scanner. Combined with machine
learning it will likely be possible to recognize people as they walk
around and maybe even inside buildings. In any case it's trivial if
they're carrying a phone - which almost everyone now does.. maybe it
would seem suspicious if someone is walking around without one and merit
extra scrutiny.. or if it becomes really unusual a wealfare visit by the
nearest squad car. Particularly if they were walking erratically or
carrying a weapon.

> Does the "stick modem" to which you refer just allow you to do dialup
> over the cellular link?

Not anymore.. back in the late 90s that's how it worked and I think it
lasted into the early 2010s (so into the era of usb dongles), but it
worked by having modem banks at the cellco (it was a straight data
connection from the phone/dongle to the cellco) and these modem banks
have been decommissioned on most networks.

>  Or does it behave like a wifi hotspot,
> getting you an IP address via DHCP?

Most dongles support a legacy mode where it acts a lot like a
traditional modem with AT commands, except the only number you can dial
is *99# which will connect you to a PPP session.. however this mode
can't really take advantage of the >100mbps speeds of a modern 4g
network, so they also support qmi or mbim which is usually presented as
an Ethernet interface often with a DHCP server, although the qmi
protocol can also configure the interface.

-Rob
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Joel Maxuel
With the discussion forked (side thread on dongles), not sure where I should squat (my addition is regarding cellular hardware and the services around it).

There was a remark about the division between phone hardware and carrier subscription, that the two are not tied together with "newer" equipment (instead a SIM card bridges that gap, allowing to move your subscription between devices).  There are a few caveats/considerations to that:

* The GSM standard (what provides the use of the SIM card), has been around since 1978, with a new "generation" of the standard approximately every 10 years (5G is just starting to get rolled out).
* The major competitor, particularly in North America, has been CDMA (which maintains subscriber data to the phone), and has similar speed refreshes.
* Having a GSM phone - which is very likely, unless you have a (namely/for-example) Bell monstrosity pushing eight years or more - far from guarantees you can pop a SIM from another carrier into your phone and expect it to work.  Phones supplied by the carrier are often locked to the carrier (recent rules allow you to get the unlock code for free as long as your account is in good standing), and carriers (particularly in different countries) use different network "bands" (e.g. a common band pair for Canadian carriers is 3G/"HSPA" frequencies 950MHz and 1900Mhz) - GSMArena is a good web resource to determine the capabilities of your phone.
* Future GSM products (may have been spotted in the latest iPhone by now) do not have a SIM card (which has seen three or four different sizes, depending on if the largest one - the size of a credit card - is still recognized) at all, rather a programmable "eSIM", complicating matters further.

5G has not been deployed yet, and there are dozens of vulnerabilities affecting it (and 4G LTE):
 
Separately, even 3G is not immune to recent revelations (this one has the ability for someone to collect metadata - call time; duration; et cetera - though apparently not the actual content/conversation):

Personally, I have rolled my phone settings back to 3G in part because of what is happening with LTE (4G/5G).

I also rarely use the manufacturers operating system on the phone.  There are aftermarket firmware providers for specific devices (I maintain one for the Motorola G5) that will replace the manufacturers firmware with a "custom" one (LineageOS, CarbonROM are a couple examples of aftermarket providers).  This process isn't for the faint of heart, and in some cases (Motorola) it is difficult (or impossible) to come back to a manufacturer state fully if you don't like the experience.  It's still Android in the end, it is just closer to the core code base known as AOSP (Android Open Source Project).

An advantage for custom however (other than the pattern of security updates or upgrades beyond what the manufacturer will ever provide) is that the installation of Google services is optional (as it turns out, to have them is an added install step).  I stay without and have experienced better battery life and reduced network usage because of it.

Personally, I don't see the point in separating phone functionality by having two objects (feature/"dumb" phone and hotspot stick), over one (smartphone) as feature phones are harder to come by with the required network requirements (Rogers may be the only provider left to do 2G), and the two object will reveal as much about yourself as the one.  Modularity would have been a reasonable argument, except there is a very good chance the radios between the two do the same things anyway (too much functional overlap).

Cannot think of much more on the subject except (further off-topic) for the market pushing for user-replaceable batteries once more.  Apple has proved in recent years the importance of a reasonably functional battery in a phone, yet will not make it easy to replace (instead have costly - to their bottom line - replacement programs when their old batteries meant stability or performance issues).  Too many OEMs followed suit with Apple, and there are only a small handful of devices in recent years that make it easy: LG G5 (2016), Moto G5 (2017), Samsung J3 (2018) - for example.  If the user base cared more about this (and be vocal about it) instead of blindly accepting the opinions of reviewers who may only use a device for two weeks, we may have a good start for actual longevity in the phone market again.

--
Cheers,
Joel Maxuel

"One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
 - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson


On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 10:07 PM Robert McKay <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2019-04-22 13:32, [hidden email] wrote:
>> However, Mike re: what you wrote about necessity of a phone:
>>
>> Another line of thought here; you could keep your privacy by
>> purchasing a cheapo non-smart phone as well as a simple cellular usb
>> stick modem.

Not really.. both the non smart phone and usb dongle can be localised /
triangulated by the cell network. US networks recently got into trouble
selling this location data to bail bondsman. Your phone number will
still be uploaded to Facebook/LinkedIn etc by anyone you've ever given
it too, also linking you to them in the social graph. Moving into 5g the
networks may even be able to track you when not carrying any phone at
all.. basically synthetic aperture radar / real-time remote imaging or
imagine a city inside a giant airport scanner. Combined with machine
learning it will likely be possible to recognize people as they walk
around and maybe even inside buildings. In any case it's trivial if
they're carrying a phone - which almost everyone now does.. maybe it
would seem suspicious if someone is walking around without one and merit
extra scrutiny.. or if it becomes really unusual a wealfare visit by the
nearest squad car. Particularly if they were walking erratically or
carrying a weapon.

> Does the "stick modem" to which you refer just allow you to do dialup
> over the cellular link?

Not anymore.. back in the late 90s that's how it worked and I think it
lasted into the early 2010s (so into the era of usb dongles), but it
worked by having modem banks at the cellco (it was a straight data
connection from the phone/dongle to the cellco) and these modem banks
have been decommissioned on most networks.

>  Or does it behave like a wifi hotspot,
> getting you an IP address via DHCP?

Most dongles support a legacy mode where it acts a lot like a
traditional modem with AT commands, except the only number you can dial
is *99# which will connect you to a PPP session.. however this mode
can't really take advantage of the >100mbps speeds of a modern 4g
network, so they also support qmi or mbim which is usually presented as
an Ethernet interface often with a DHCP server, although the qmi
protocol can also configure the interface.

-Rob
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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

George N. White III

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 08:38, Joel Maxuel <[hidden email]> wrote:
With the discussion forked (side thread on dongles), not sure where I should squat (my addition is regarding cellular hardware and the services around it).

[... some very useful information] 
Personally, I don't see the point in separating phone functionality by having two objects (feature/"dumb" phone and hotspot stick), over one (smartphone) as feature phones are harder to come by with the required network requirements (Rogers may be the only provider left to do 2G), and the two object will reveal as much about yourself as the one.  Modularity would have been a reasonable argument, except there is a very good chance the radios between the two do the same things anyway (too much functional overlap).

Not to mention the added work keeping two systems updated.   Many phones can be used as wifi "hotspots" if you
need data for a laptop, or non-cellular tablet, etc.

For people travelling across borders, legal protections against unreasonable searches aren't active, so it is recommended that you reset your phone to factory default, and keep any information you need "in the cloud".  The Governemt of Canada
doesn't want employees with phones taking them across boarders so provides phones for people travelling on official business. 

Cannot think of much more on the subject except (further off-topic) for the market pushing for user-replaceable batteries once more.  Apple has proved in recent years the importance of a reasonably functional battery in a phone, yet will not make it easy to replace (instead have costly - to their bottom line - replacement programs when their old batteries meant stability or performance issues).  Too many OEMs followed suit with Apple, and there are only a small handful of devices in recent years that make it easy: LG G5 (2016), Moto G5 (2017), Samsung J3 (2018) - for example.  If the user base cared more about this (and be vocal about it) instead of blindly accepting the opinions of reviewers who may only use a device for two weeks, we may have a good start for actual longevity in the phone market again.

Water intrusion is one of the most common causes of death for cell phones.   You can't have thin, waterproof, and
user-replaceble battery together.    I liked the size and replaceble battery of the Samsung Galaxy S III, coupled with a 
waterproof "ziplock" pouch, but the "market" seems to demand big and thin.   I remember when the "market" demanded
big tailfins on big cars until some manufacturers started selling smaller models without the fins.   I did read that Apple
is considering an update to the SE phone, so maybe things are turning around.

--
George N. White III


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Re: Facebook, Google - Why avoid and what else to use?

Joel Maxuel
For people travelling across borders, legal protections against unreasonable searches aren't active, so it is recommended that you reset your phone to factory default, and keep any information you need "in the cloud".  The Governemt of Canada
doesn't want employees with phones taking them across boarders so provides phones for people travelling on official business. 

Cannot think of much more on the subject except (further off-topic) for the market pushing for user-replaceable batteries once more.  Apple has proved in recent years the importance of a reasonably functional battery in a phone, yet will not make it easy to replace (instead have costly - to their bottom line - replacement programs when their old batteries meant stability or performance issues).  Too many OEMs followed suit with Apple, and there are only a small handful of devices in recent years that make it easy: LG G5 (2016), Moto G5 (2017), Samsung J3 (2018) - for example.  If the user base cared more about this (and be vocal about it) instead of blindly accepting the opinions of reviewers who may only use a device for two weeks, we may have a good start for actual longevity in the phone market again.

Water intrusion is one of the most common causes of death for cell phones.   You can't have thin, waterproof, and
user-replaceble battery together.    I liked the size and replaceble battery of the Samsung Galaxy S III, coupled with a 
waterproof "ziplock" pouch, but the "market" seems to demand big and thin.   I remember when the "market" demanded
big tailfins on big cars until some manufacturers started selling smaller models without the fins.   I did read that Apple
is considering an update to the SE phone, so maybe things are turning around.


On the contrary.  Samsung S4 (with replaceable battery) had better water protection rating than the S6 (non-replaceable).
Generally this is true due to having to have accessible back panels, but there are other points to be concerned about as well (and it is possible to have a good seal around a back plate anyway).

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