Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

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Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Oliver Doepner
Does anyone know this Meetup group?
https://www.meetup.com/Halifax-Red-Hat-User-Group-Meetup/



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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

D G Teed-2
A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to expect from the people who brought us systemd.

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:24 PM Oliver Doepner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Does anyone know this Meetup group?
https://www.meetup.com/Halifax-Red-Hat-User-Group-Meetup/



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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Ben Armstrong-2
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed <[hidden email]> wrote:
A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to expect from the people who brought us systemd.


First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see that in the link?

Ben

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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Ben Armstrong-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Doepner


On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:24 PM Oliver Doepner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Does anyone know this Meetup group?
https://www.meetup.com/Halifax-Red-Hat-User-Group-Meetup/


I hadn't heard of them. Interesting!

Ben
 

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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Joel Maxuel
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong-2
I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through FB OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).  
However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from what I remember.

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Cheers,
Joel Maxuel

"One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
 - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson


On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed <[hidden email]> wrote:
A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to expect from the people who brought us systemd.


First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see that in the link?

Ben
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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Ben Armstrong-2
That's my understanding too. Not a requirement at all.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM Joel Maxuel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through FB OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).  
However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from what I remember.

--
Cheers,
Joel Maxuel

"One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
 - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson


On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed <[hidden email]> wrote:
A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to expect from the people who brought us systemd.


First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see that in the link?

Ben
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On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Ben Armstrong-2
I didn't mean to come down heavily on Donald in particular, as that comment was an innocent error & also a valid observation even if a little off in the details - why would a Linux group (by association, more likely to be defenders of digital rights and freedoms) use a platform that is "in bed" with Facebook and Google? Good question!

But it does point to a thing that we, as a group operating within a community with a broad range of opinions & feelings on these issues, should probably avoid: adopting an "us/them" mentality about our assumptions & values, consciously or unconsciously, is not pro-social behaviour. If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves. I speak as one who struggles with this with regards to all my own assumptions & values, too, across the spectrum of my life experiences, and don't want to come off as "having arrived" or being a perfect example to the group. The increasing polarization of views in the world is being exacerbated by the toxic culture that Facebook and other social media giants promote. Rather than entirely withdraw from that world, I have opted to continue to work within it, but work harder at promoting a different kind of culture in my interactions that does not "feed the beast". Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point of contact to just drop off of it entirely.

Ben
* Note: we have a public web archive of our mailing list, so nothing said here "in private" really is. The whole world is watching!

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:36 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's my understanding too. Not a requirement at all.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM Joel Maxuel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through FB OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).  
However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from what I remember.

--
Cheers,
Joel Maxuel

"One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
 - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson


On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed <[hidden email]> wrote:
A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to expect from the people who brought us systemd.


First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see that in the link?

Ben
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Re: Do you know "Halifax Red Hat User Group Meetup" ?

Oliver Doepner
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong-2
I can confirm that FB ist not required for logging in at meetup.com.

I have an account there and it works the classic way, just using email
address and password.

FB and Google auth are alternative login options (most likely for the
convenience inclined and password management challenged).


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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Tony Rowe
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong-2
Hi Ben!

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:49:10AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> I didn't mean to come down heavily on Donald in particular,

 
> But it does point to a thing that we, as a group operating within a community
> with a broad range of opinions & feelings on these issues, should probably
> avoid: adopting an "us/them" mentality about our assumptions & values,
> consciously or unconsciously, is not pro-social behaviour.

Pro-social behaviour does not equate with goodness or best behaviour
necessarily, does it?  

> If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for
> more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and
> freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when
> "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves. I speak as one who
> struggles with this with regards to all my own assumptions & values,
> too, across the spectrum of my life experiences, and don't want to
> come off as "having arrived" or being a perfect example to the group.

No.  I believe the realists have a point here: that there comes a time
when one needs to speak to a policy, to defend it, and be vocal in
one's disdain (in this case for individuals who choose to use software
which stands against digital freedoms); who are exercising the freedom
not to be free at their peril.

> The increasing polarization of views in the world is being
> exacerbated by the toxic culture that Facebook and other social media
> giants promote. Rather than entirely withdraw from that world, I have
> opted to continue to work within it, but work harder at promoting a
> different kind of culture in my interactions that does not "feed the
> beast".

I agree about Facebook and toxic culture.  

To return to Donald's point, I allow a software suite written by L.
Poettering and cohorts to be installed (by fiat essentially).  It
resides on my machine like an alien, almost as an operating system
within an operating system, which sits devil-like between my userspace
and the kernel.  I do this because it works quite well and because I am
too lazy to fix something that isn't broken.  But I still think the PR
(propaganda) of its implementation was awful and I don't mind saying
so?

> Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too
> much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point
> of contact to just drop off of it entirely.

Your transgressions look better than mine do.  You tolerate non-free
media because you want to remain in touch with people you care about.  
But if I am lazy (and that would be a kind way to say it), are you not
committing a bandwagon fallacy (succumbing to peer pressure
essentially) with your, "Rather than entirely withdraw from that world,
I have opted to work within it… "?

Seriously derailed and insanely morbid governments have relied on this
sort of behaviour from their civil service and from their military and
indeed from common citizens as well, to commit horrible deeds.

Certainly I see your reasoning and it may be mostly harmless in this
context to do as you say, but I think your position has more potential
to do harm than Donald's alleged elitism does.

Tony

> Ben
>
> * Note: we have a public web archive of our mailing list, so
> nothing said here "in private" really is. The whole world is
> watching!
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:36 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     That's my understanding too. Not a requirement at all.
>
>     On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM Joel Maxuel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>         I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through FB
>         OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).  
>         However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from what I
>         remember.
>
>         --
>         Cheers,
>         Joel Maxuel
>
>         "One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
>          - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson
>
>
>         On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]>
>         wrote:
>
>             On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed <[hidden email]>
>             wrote:
>
>                 A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to
>                 expect from the people who brought us systemd.
>
>
>
>             First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see that in
>             the link?
>
>             Ben
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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Oliver Doepner
Tony mentions
1) staying in touch with Facebook friends in a mindful manner
2) civil service [..] military [..] and common citizens [..]
commit[ed] horrible deeds.
and lumps together both 1) and 2) as outcomes of "bandwagon fallacy".

I (Oliver) find this comparison grotesque, especially since I know
that Ben on FB mainly posts  about nature walks and other peaceful /
mindful things, and does not engage in toxic hate-mongering or shallow
meme-posting, etc.








On 4/5/19, Tony Rowe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ben!
>
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:49:10AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
>> I didn't mean to come down heavily on Donald in particular,
> …
>
>> But it does point to a thing that we, as a group operating within a
>> community
>> with a broad range of opinions & feelings on these issues, should probably
>> avoid: adopting an "us/them" mentality about our assumptions & values,
>> consciously or unconsciously, is not pro-social behaviour.
>
> Pro-social behaviour does not equate with goodness or best behaviour
> necessarily, does it?
>
>> If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for
>> more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and
>> freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when
>> "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves. I speak as one who
>> struggles with this with regards to all my own assumptions & values,
>> too, across the spectrum of my life experiences, and don't want to
>> come off as "having arrived" or being a perfect example to the group.
>
> No.  I believe the realists have a point here: that there comes a time
> when one needs to speak to a policy, to defend it, and be vocal in
> one's disdain (in this case for individuals who choose to use software
> which stands against digital freedoms); who are exercising the freedom
> not to be free at their peril.
>
>> The increasing polarization of views in the world is being
>> exacerbated by the toxic culture that Facebook and other social media
>> giants promote. Rather than entirely withdraw from that world, I have
>> opted to continue to work within it, but work harder at promoting a
>> different kind of culture in my interactions that does not "feed the
>> beast".
>
> I agree about Facebook and toxic culture.
>
> To return to Donald's point, I allow a software suite written by L.
> Poettering and cohorts to be installed (by fiat essentially).  It
> resides on my machine like an alien, almost as an operating system
> within an operating system, which sits devil-like between my userspace
> and the kernel.  I do this because it works quite well and because I am
> too lazy to fix something that isn't broken.  But I still think the PR
> (propaganda) of its implementation was awful and I don't mind saying
> so?
>
>> Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too
>> much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point
>> of contact to just drop off of it entirely.
>
> Your transgressions look better than mine do.  You tolerate non-free
> media because you want to remain in touch with people you care about.
> But if I am lazy (and that would be a kind way to say it), are you not
> committing a bandwagon fallacy (succumbing to peer pressure
> essentially) with your, "Rather than entirely withdraw from that world,
> I have opted to work within it… "?
>
> Seriously derailed and insanely morbid governments have relied on this
> sort of behaviour from their civil service and from their military and
> indeed from common citizens as well, to commit horrible deeds.
>
> Certainly I see your reasoning and it may be mostly harmless in this
> context to do as you say, but I think your position has more potential
> to do harm than Donald's alleged elitism does.
>
> Tony
>
>> Ben
>>
>> * Note: we have a public web archive of our mailing list, so
>> nothing said here "in private" really is. The whole world is
>> watching!
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:36 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>     That's my understanding too. Not a requirement at all.
>>
>>     On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM Joel Maxuel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>         I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through
>> FB
>>         OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).
>>         However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from
>> what I
>>         remember.
>>
>>         --
>>         Cheers,
>>         Joel Maxuel
>>
>>         "One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
>>          - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson
>>
>>
>>         On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>             On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed
>> <[hidden email]>
>>             wrote:
>>
>>                 A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to
>>                 expect from the people who brought us systemd.
>>
>>
>>
>>             First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see
>> that in
>>             the link?
>>
>>             Ben
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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Tony Rowe
On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 12:21:30PM -0300, Oliver Doepner wrote:

> Tony mentions
> 1) staying in touch with Facebook friends in a mindful manner
> 2) civil service [..] military [..] and common citizens [..]
> commit[ed] horrible deeds.
> and lumps together both 1) and 2) as outcomes of "bandwagon fallacy".
>
> I (Oliver) find this comparison grotesque, especially since I know
> that Ben on FB mainly posts  about nature walks and other peaceful /
> mindful things, and does not engage in toxic hate-mongering or shallow
> meme-posting, etc.

Oliver,

I was exaggerating to make a point.  I didn't set out to make a "toxic"
post but I see now that I did.

I should have spoken more plainly and said that Ben and me go along
with some of the software we use when it might be better not to, and
posit that Donald is taking a better tack by making a strong "us/them"
distinction.

I guess I could have just said that without dragging in all the
melodrama though.  Sorry I offended you.

Tony

>
> On 4/5/19, Tony Rowe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Ben!
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:49:10AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> >> I didn't mean to come down heavily on Donald in particular,
> > …
> >
> >> But it does point to a thing that we, as a group operating within a
> >> community
> >> with a broad range of opinions & feelings on these issues, should probably
> >> avoid: adopting an "us/them" mentality about our assumptions & values,
> >> consciously or unconsciously, is not pro-social behaviour.
> >
> > Pro-social behaviour does not equate with goodness or best behaviour
> > necessarily, does it?
> >
> >> If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for
> >> more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and
> >> freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when
> >> "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves. I speak as one who
> >> struggles with this with regards to all my own assumptions & values,
> >> too, across the spectrum of my life experiences, and don't want to
> >> come off as "having arrived" or being a perfect example to the group.
> >
> > No.  I believe the realists have a point here: that there comes a time
> > when one needs to speak to a policy, to defend it, and be vocal in
> > one's disdain (in this case for individuals who choose to use software
> > which stands against digital freedoms); who are exercising the freedom
> > not to be free at their peril.
> >
> >> The increasing polarization of views in the world is being
> >> exacerbated by the toxic culture that Facebook and other social media
> >> giants promote. Rather than entirely withdraw from that world, I have
> >> opted to continue to work within it, but work harder at promoting a
> >> different kind of culture in my interactions that does not "feed the
> >> beast".
> >
> > I agree about Facebook and toxic culture.
> >
> > To return to Donald's point, I allow a software suite written by L.
> > Poettering and cohorts to be installed (by fiat essentially).  It
> > resides on my machine like an alien, almost as an operating system
> > within an operating system, which sits devil-like between my userspace
> > and the kernel.  I do this because it works quite well and because I am
> > too lazy to fix something that isn't broken.  But I still think the PR
> > (propaganda) of its implementation was awful and I don't mind saying
> > so?
> >
> >> Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too
> >> much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point
> >> of contact to just drop off of it entirely.
> >
> > Your transgressions look better than mine do.  You tolerate non-free
> > media because you want to remain in touch with people you care about.
> > But if I am lazy (and that would be a kind way to say it), are you not
> > committing a bandwagon fallacy (succumbing to peer pressure
> > essentially) with your, "Rather than entirely withdraw from that world,
> > I have opted to work within it… "?
> >
> > Seriously derailed and insanely morbid governments have relied on this
> > sort of behaviour from their civil service and from their military and
> > indeed from common citizens as well, to commit horrible deeds.
> >
> > Certainly I see your reasoning and it may be mostly harmless in this
> > context to do as you say, but I think your position has more potential
> > to do harm than Donald's alleged elitism does.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >> Ben
> >>
> >> * Note: we have a public web archive of our mailing list, so
> >> nothing said here "in private" really is. The whole world is
> >> watching!
> >>
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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Oliver Doepner
Hi Tony,

Thanks for the clarifying and consoling words. I was not actually
offended, just found it somewhat grotesque, as I said.  :)

It's all good and we are on the same page.

However, I am not sure if stronger "us/them" distinctions are better.

In my personal experience, less us/them thinking is more inclusive,
less confrontational and leads to better dialog.

I used to be a strong "us/them" kind of guy in my 20s and partially in
my 30s. I hope I am mostly over that. ;)

Cheers and enjoy the weekend, everyone
Oliver



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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Ben Armstrong-2
In reply to this post by Tony Rowe
Hi Tony!

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 10:17 PM Tony Rowe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Pro-social behaviour does not equate with goodness or best behaviour
> necessarily, does it?

No, and regretfully, I furnish myself as an example. I don't think holding up a
member of this list as an example of "what not to do" is not good, not me on
my best behaviour, and not modelling pro-social behaviour either. :/

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:49:10AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> > If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for
> > more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and
> > freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when
> > "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves.
>
> No.  I believe the realists have a point here: that there comes a time
> when one needs to speak to a policy, to defend it, and be vocal in
> one's disdain (in this case for individuals who choose to use software
> which stands against digital freedoms); who are exercising the freedom
> not to be free at their peril.

Right. There are real dangers here, both in appearing to say "yeah, this
is perfectly OK, go ahead and give Facebook all your data" as a Linux
group (an apparent clash of cultures/values) and in my own personal
defense of why I'm still on the platform. It is not benign. It is not "just
a medium", neutral & equally full of potential for positive & negative use
all depending on how you approach it. And I may be kidding myself in
this latest round of "let's give it another try and see if I can extract more
value from it than it extracts value (and lifeblood) from me" not being a
dangerous game that will end up with me being burned by it.

> To return to Donald's point, I allow a software suite written by L.
> Poettering and cohorts to be installed (by fiat essentially).  It
> resides on my machine like an alien, almost as an operating system
> within an operating system, which sits devil-like between my userspace
> and the kernel.  I do this because it works quite well and because I am
> too lazy to fix something that isn't broken.  But I still think the PR
> (propaganda) of its implementation was awful and I don't mind saying
> so?

OK. I'm not quite on the same terms with systemd, and rather like how
it has made my life as an administrator easier in some ways, but I
get the analogy, at least. :)  And yes, it would be unfair to squelch
criticism & disdain of it, or at least how it came into the world. There
were some really awful things done "for the good of all" while trampling
over a bunch of individuals to get there. It's not a good trend ...

> > Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too
> > much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point
> > of contact to just drop off of it entirely.
>
> Your transgressions look better than mine do.  You tolerate non-free
> media because you want to remain in touch with people you care about.
> But if I am lazy (and that would be a kind way to say it), are you not
> committing a bandwagon fallacy (succumbing to peer pressure
> essentially) with your, "Rather than entirely withdraw from that world,
> I have opted to work within it… "?

Well, "work within it" is not equal to "actively encourage other people to
use it". They're already there and have "bought in". I don't think my
absence / the absence of my postings & interactions there would compel
them to not use it. Nor do I feel my little contributions are keeping them
"stuck" there to their detriment (at least not substantially). My compromise
position is that I leave FB alone for all but a handful of minutes of the day,
and then when I do use it, I actively seek out places where I think I can
see value in participating, all the while trying not to get sucked in.

The lion's share of my social media time is spent on iNaturalist,
not Facebook, adding up to hours rather than minutes, and so to the
extent I do remain on FB, it's only because being realistic, not everyone
I'd like to involve in discussions about nature / photography can be
convinced, or even have an interest in iNat. That being said, just this
week, a fellow Debian developer posted an intriguing picture to FB and
straight away I recognized it as an "iNat evangelism moment". I was
delighted when he followed up by getting an account and posting his
observation to iNat, and I've seen a couple more nice shots from him
since then. So I don't think it has been a total waste of time, or entirely
a losing battle.

> Seriously derailed and insanely morbid governments have relied on this
> sort of behaviour from their civil service and from their military and
> indeed from common citizens as well, to commit horrible deeds.

True, true ... and so I'm continuing to watch and learn. I'm not entirely
convinced of my own arguments & apparent successes, and not so
utterly naive that I think that just because I don't see the harm right
now there isn't any.

> Certainly I see your reasoning and it may be mostly harmless in this
> context to do as you say, but I think your position has more potential
> to do harm than Donald's alleged elitism does.

Fair criticism.

Ben
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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Ben Armstrong-2
On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ben Armstrong <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No, and regretfully, I furnish myself as an example. I don't think holding up a
> member of this list as an example of "what not to do" is not good, not me on
> my best behaviour, and not modelling pro-social behaviour either. :/

Argh. Strike "don't" in sentence 2 for this to make sense. :)
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Re: On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Tony Rowe
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong-2
On Mon, Apr 08, 2019 at 07:16:07PM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:

> The lion's share of my social media time is spent on iNaturalist,
> not Facebook, adding up to hours rather than minutes, and so to the
> extent I do remain on FB, it's only because being realistic, not everyone
> I'd like to involve in discussions about nature / photography can be
> convinced, or even have an interest in iNat. That being said, just this
...

I was wondering where you were posting these days.  I just looked and
found at least one link to 'iNat' (which I missed before when I looked)
from your syn.theti blog.  I am very fond of many of the nature
pictures you have taken over the years and I am happy to find where you
are putting them up these days.

I agree with what you say about your participation on FB.  I am sure I
would be using one or two of the new, shiny social-media sites myself
if I had reason to do so.  As it is, I am now so far out of the loop
that I read 'FB' as 'Frozen-Bubble'.

Thank-you for gracing my mail with such a thorough and thoughtful
reply.  I think you flushed out some of my ideas better than I did.

Tony
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